May 8, 2022 - #945 - "UFOs You Never Heard Of" with Michael Schratt (1240 AM & 99.5 FM)

May 09, 2022 00:56:06
May 8, 2022 - #945 - "UFOs You Never Heard Of" with Michael Schratt (1240 AM & 99.5 FM)
Behind the Paranormal with Paul & Ben Eno on WOON 1240 AM and 99.3 FM Providence/Boston
May 8, 2022 - #945 - "UFOs You Never Heard Of" with Michael Schratt (1240 AM & 99.5 FM)
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Show Notes

Paul & Ben welcomed UFO researcher and military aerospace historian Michael Schratt for a riveting look at lost, forgotten and obscure UFO encounters, including the "Michelin Man " encounters of 1968-1977, the mysterious "airship wave" of 1897, and many more. See the video of this show.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to behind the paranormal with Paul and Ben Eno Speaker 2 00:00:16 Is the Michelin man an alien. Was there an outbreak of UFO sightings in the 1890s? Did a Japanese airliner really encounter a mothership in 1986. Speaker 3 00:00:29 Hello and welcome to the 945th edition of behind the paranormal with Paul and Ben. Eino coming to you from w O N a am and FM in, uh, uh, Moosa Rhode Island on the paranormal radio app from talk stream, live on YouTube and via tunein.com. I'm Ben and those uplifting questions came from a co-host partner in paranormal adventures and dad Paul. And today we welcome a new and distinguished guest. Speaker 2 00:00:55 Michael Shrek is a private pilot and aviation historian who has investigated UFO encounters for over 25 years, uh, between 2008 and 2009. Michael meticulously reviewed a minimum of 50,000 cases, which were preserved at theos or center for UFO studies archives in Chicago in an effort to maintain an important part of our national history. Michael has recreated dozens of highly credible UFO cases through drawings, illustrations, and commissioned artwork. Many of these include UO. There are unidentified submerged objects, uh, extraterrestrial encounters and pre-history UFO cases, which have never seen the light of day. Michael has appeared on multiple media platforms, including coast to coast, a am history channel, the paranormal matrix, UFO hunters fade to black. And in addition, Michael has been a guest speaker at multiple UFO conferences. He will speak at the MoveOn or mutual UFO network symposium in Denver, in July. Speaker 3 00:01:56 So Michael Shrek, welcome to behind the paranormal. Speaker 4 00:02:01 Thanks for giving me the opportunity to join both of you. Appreciate it. Speaker 2 00:02:06 Very good. Speaker 3 00:02:07 Well, always fun to have somebody new on and, and it seems like as long as long as we've done this show now all 945 plus episodes. It's yeah, there's always new people to meet always new things to learn. And we're really, really excited to have you here. So I guess we'll just, we'll, we'll hop right into it, right? The meat and potatoes. What is the most significant UFO counter you are aware of among the least known cases? Speaker 4 00:02:32 Okay, no problem. Uh, I guess, uh, the, the best way to start is to dig down into the government's own files. Uh, we're talking about project blue book here, but within those files, there's an, an obscure case that really hasn't been talked about. But personally, it's my favorite. I think it encapsulates everything that we want to talk about here. And let me set the scene for you here. It's March 23rd, 1966, temple Oklahoma, and an electrical engineer by the name of Eddie lain is driving down the road. It's about 5 0 3 in the morning. And again, this is not my case. This is the United States government project, blue book case. He's driving down the road 5 0 5 in the morning, and the sun is just rising up above the horizon. So it's still a little bit, uh, dark out yet. And all of a sudden something is blocking the road and it can only be described as a bowling pin tipped over 90 degrees on its side. Speaker 4 00:03:33 The best way to describe this thing. Uh, now I have his original sketch here. I have the original project blue book report. And what I want to kind of do is, you know, over the radio, we will describe this, uh, in detail. So people can get a kind of a sight picture in their mind. Now off to the right of this bowling pin. We'll start at the, at the right hand side and worked our way toward the left end. Now this is just after he put on the brakes and was looking at this strange bowling pin parked right in front of him. Uh, it was about 75 feet in the length. It was eight feet tall, and basically it had on the very forward leading edge of the craft, something that looked like a bubble transparent canopy that looked like it was stolen from a B 26. Speaker 4 00:04:19 Now there were two beaming spotlights that were shining directly vertically down toward the ground. There were two beaming spotlights heading forward, and then this whole thing was propped up on what looked like Pogo landing, your lunar landing, your legs about three and a half feet tall. Now, just after the forward landing your legs, there was an air stair door and next to the air stair door, there was a man standing next to the air stair door. This was a man, not an alien, not an next to terrestrial. He was wearing two piece military green fatigues. He had a flashlight that was shining down toward the air stair door. Like he was examining something. And then according to Eddie lain, whose electrical engineer who worked at shepherd air force base, he said that he was wearing a baseball cap with the bill turned up now just above this air stair door, there was a SP or stinger that swept back toward the AFT end of the craft that terminated into a 10 inch diameter sphere and further AF as we're going after toward the, uh, back end of the craft, there was a porthole window that was lit from inside that had, uh, four equal pie segments. Speaker 4 00:05:32 So it was divided into four equal pie segments, approximately three and a half feet in diameter just after that porthole window. And this is where it gets interesting. There was written in black letters, T L 47 68 written on the side of the craft at the very end of the craft. There were two small flight control surfaces that appeared to be way too small to be effective aerodynamically. Now, when the man who was wearing the two piece military green fatigue, when he saw that he was being watched by Eddie L and he hurried up this air stair door, he closed the door. Then according to the project blue book report, there was a high pitch drilling noise. This craft took off the ground. Sat there, hovering off the ground, maybe 25 feet sat there for about 30 seconds and then took off like a spark on a grinding wheel and made no Sonic boom whatsoever. Speaker 4 00:06:29 This is March, 1966. Now Eddie L was, he was shocked. He got back into his car. He drove another half mile down the road and he saw a truck driver pull off to the side of the road. The truck driver was, uh, outside the driver's side window, standing on the running boards, kind of looking up and Eddie lacks and pulled off to the side of the road and asked him if he needed help. And this truck driver proceeded to tell Eddie L the exact same craft that he had just seen literally two minutes earlier. So we had independent confirmation from two separate sources on the same vehicle. This is March 23rd. nineteen<affirmative>. Speaker 2 00:07:10 Wow. What, what's your interpretation of that? I mean, is it, I mean, the, the obvious, um, suggestion might be that this is a secret government project of some kind. And, uh, uh, but then on the other hand that there are all sorts of reports of aliens, whatever that means, uh, appearing to be normal human beings with ball caps sometimes, and things of this kind. And, um, there's also this, the suggestion of time travel, this sort of thing. So let's say you, do you have an interpretation of this? Speaker 4 00:07:45 Sure. Uh, well, couple quick things now on the shoulder of this man with the green military fatigue, there were these ranking insignias, like a us nav Admiral, when he would wear a suit, there was these ranking insignias. That's what Eddie Lackson saw on this gentleman. So that that's one point second point is it's, it's very clear and we've got a newspaper clear here, and I'm just gonna go over this very briefly here. This is the daily Oklahoman, March 1st, 1971. And I'm, I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but I just want to hit you with a quote from Eddie L and here here's, here's what he said. Quote, what I saw was definitely from not from space, the man was wearing fatigues and had a cap with the bill, broken up like air force mechanics, wear LS and said it had common English letters on it. So according to this electrical engineer, he felt that this is one of ours, Speaker 2 00:08:43 But with flag officer marking rank insignia Speaker 4 00:08:47 With, with some type of insignia ranking, uh, insignias on his shoulder, mm-hmm <affirmative> They had T written on the side of the crack. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:08:58 Okay. Uh, what did the blue book people say about this? If, if anything, Speaker 4 00:09:04 Okay, let me see if I can hit you with that here. And, uh, okay. This is according to project blue book conclusion, unidentified. This case is carried as unidentified since after evaluation of all the available information. No concrete explanation is possible. Second observer has not returned the request form 1 64. So they consider it unidentified <laugh>. Um, I don't think it's unidentified. Speaker 2 00:09:31 No, no, but, well, the thing with the government, people say you, when they talk about disclosure, particularly, uh, well, you know, the government is going to tell us what they do. Well, there is no the government, I mean, there they're competing agencies, all sorts of turf battles, some agencies know things, other agencies don't and then you look like you wanna say something. Speaker 3 00:09:51 Oh, well, um, I, I have, I have many things I'd like to say none of Mo most of which is, is relevant. Um, but I, I think it's, I think it's interesting that there's, you know, usually you hear kind of the opposite reaction, oh, this definitely isn't from earth. Right. You know, this is definitely something, you know, extraterrestrial and said, this is a terrestrial thing. And I, it, it makes sense. Um, mostly because there, in, in sort of this time period, let's say between Roswell to the present, right. There's been all sorts of different, you know, for lack of better words, iterations of, of craft beings, you know, all sorts of other stuff. And you you'd think there'd be some sort of consistency. Sometimes there is in, in some ways there are, but there are sort of these odd things that kind of stick out, you know, like the flat woods monster, and that whole incident kind of pops out in my head or, you know, in Speaker 2 00:10:42 1956. Speaker 3 00:10:43 Yeah. And, and West Virginia, and this is 71. Right. So you you'd think there'd be some sort of concrete sort of, I don't wanna say concrete, that's not the right word, sort of a, a consistent experience almost, but it, it doesn't seem to be consistent ever. Right. You know, you, you sort of have this idea in your head of, okay, well, we know there's like, you know, there's triangular shape craft, there's circular craft, you know, saucers, you know, something like that, but this is something kind of out there. Right. And I think it's interesting that it's like, okay, well we know it's no, no quote unquote, you know, we have a pretty good idea that this is one of ours. So if in your opinion, Michael, how much of the stuff that you've, let's say you've been researching, would you say is more of hours versus it being entirely extra terrestrial? Speaker 4 00:11:29 Honestly, I think the number is very high. It's extremely high. I think it's up to 90%. Wow. Very high percentage of, and the reason why I mentioned that, and I'll give you a quick example here, and we can run through another case here really quickly. Mm-hmm <affirmative> there was a case here. Uh, this is basically March. This is February 3rd, 1983, mobile, Alabama, and just kind run through this really quickly. Uh, the primary eye witness was driving home after a dinner engagement. This is mobile Alabama, and she's alone. She's driving in her car, it's at night and she hears this big booming noise. Her car starts shaking. She pulls off to the side of the road. She gets out of the vehicle. She looks under the vehicle. She thought the transmission may have fallen out. It was like a very severe, booming, rattling noise. Mm-hmm <affirmative> everything seemed to be okay. Speaker 4 00:12:25 She got back into the car, she drove another half mile down the road. She looked off to the right. There was this lighted area that was really clear and hovering about 20 feet above the ground was this massive 210 foot long craft. Uh, it was 80 feet tall. It kind of had a kind of a hysterical forward section. And then this tapered wedding cake section, as it tapered back toward the after part of the vehicle. Now she said on the upper craft portion of the vehicle, there was a wraparound clear, transparent section that took up one third of the leading edge of the craft. And then behind these windows, she said she could see what looked like five foot, 10 humanoid looking beings, which were wearing a one piece type fitting white flight suit. She mentioned that now, a, just after that section, there was another transparent section. Speaker 4 00:13:18 And then she said she could see a door closing from right to left. And on the left hand wall of this craft, there were tubes, pipes and cylinders. Now I've got within my files, at least 15 cases of these mysterious pipes and cylinders and silencers that are attached to walls and bottom of these craft. Now, she also mentioned that when she was standing below this craft, she could see literally hundreds of these clear, transparent porthole windows that allowed her to look from one side of the craft, clear through the interior and all the way out to the other side. And she said that on the interior of the craft, it looked like a cross beam and girder construction, like a TRUS bridge. And it also reminded her of an east coast Naval shipping yard, where they're laying the keel of a new battleship. And you have all these bulkheads and stringer. Speaker 4 00:14:11 That's what she said. The interior looked like. And she mentioned that the whole thing was put together by these large rivets. She could see rivets on the exterior of the craft. Now on the bottom of the craft, there were two gondolas that were transparent that had these same five foot, 10 humanoid looking beings on the top portion of these gondolas, which was connected to the bottom of the craft. There were these 24 inch by 24 inch highly polished mirror, reflective devices. And this is back in 1983. I've got the original sketch, uh, with, within the report. And the reference for this is the APRO bulletin volume 32, number 2, 19 84. So here's another case where we've got pipes and cylinders. We've got humanoid looking beings. We've got rivets, we've got bulkheads, we've got stringers. It's looking very mechanical. It's looking manmade. Speaker 3 00:15:10 Hmm. Speaker 2 00:15:11 Wow. Uh, no, go ahead, Ben. I'm just, um, Speaker 3 00:15:14 Oh no, I'm, I'm Speaker 2 00:15:15 Wanted to go back in time here. Speaker 3 00:15:17 Oh, well, I, I wanted, we're gonna stay in, in the future for a second. Um, or back to the future, whatever. Um, yeah. That's, that's interesting because usually you hear like smooth, everything's smooth. You can't really see any sort this case. A yeah, I think that's really interesting. And now, now I'm, I have, I have many logistical questions about this because I'm, I'm wondering how <laugh>, how the us, how any, any sort of, you know, military body could store something like this, or, you know, this is you we're 19 71, 19 83, you know, you usually usually I'll say, say that, um, in quotes you would see something, you know, the military is usually about roughly 10 to 15 years ahead of where, of where we are as, as civilians, roughly, you know, maybe 20 or knowledge or knowledge. Right. So it's like, you know, they had the internet before everybody else did, you know, stuff like that. Speaker 3 00:16:10 Let's but you know, you'd think you'd see these, these giant things in action at this point. Right. You know, shock and awe sort of things. If, uh, or is it, is it a logistical thing? Is it, is it too expensive? You know, I, I always kind of find it kind of weird that it's like people kind of in the middle of nowhere, kind of see these things. So logistically, where do you think these things are being stored? How and why, why do you think it's always just these poor people driving around at night, <laugh> in the middle of nowhere. Speaker 4 00:16:40 Good question. Well, let's, let's expand and let's, uh, we wanna remove all limitations. First of all, these craft could be just throw it out there. They could be USOs because 51% of all UFO cases are in point effect USO cases. So they could be stored under water. No one would ever see them. That's one Speaker 3 00:16:59 Point good Speaker 4 00:17:00 Point. And number two, if, if someone wants to keep a secret, they can, they can do it. Uh, there's multiple locations of where these things could be stored. So, uh, there's no telling what they could do with the right amount of money and the right amount of brain power. There's no telling that what could be done. So all, all bets are off at this point and it can be done Speaker 2 00:17:20 Well, being a journalist, I noticed headlines and a few years ago, I was, uh, shocked by, by the one that said, uh, we're referring to China's, um, secret nuclear or semi-secret nuclear submarine program. China may be hiding its new submarines in the ocean. So I said, okay. And you know, so maybe, maybe that wasn't quite as silly as it sounded. And, uh, these things may maybe, uh, USOs indeed. Well, uh, let's go back in time a bit in a sense, uh, and, uh, talk about the 1890s, uh, because you refer to that, uh, quite, uh, uh, well, in your book, from what I understand, can you tell us about the UFO flaps of 125 years ago or something? Speaker 4 00:18:04 Yeah. See, that's the thing when you come to ufology, as you know, uh, a lot of people think that the origin point is June 14th, uh, 1947, uh, Kenneth Arnold citing that, that time period, but really it, it dates back prior to, by, by quite a bit. So if we go back to 1897 mystery Airship wave, which actually began in 1896, uh, we're, we're looking at something that occurred over Sacramento over Oakland, over San Francisco. And what people reported is this strange, you could call it a flying craft, had a we on either side, it had a tail. It had a very interesting, uh, gondola section. Now what's interesting is people reported seeing anchors being lowered from these craft and they heard laughter coming from these craft. There were big black dogs on the deck of these craft and the eyewitnesses that saw these vehicles at night. Speaker 4 00:19:11 They were generally always at night. Number one, they had these very powerful beaming spotlights that were shining down to the towns below causing chaos, just total chaos, people, screaming and yelling and, and horses darting from one side of the street to the other. They, they didn't know what these, these things were now, people who saw these craft, they said that they saw quote unquote well dressed, eccentric inventor types with top hats on the deck of these craft that we're looking down and laughing at the people below. I mean, to me, that just seems so weird. Uh, again, we got the beaming spotlights and a lot of these craft, they could go against the wind back in 1897, uh, a couple of quick points here. Eyewitness described the craft as being about 150 feet in length with four rotor, like arms. And we talked about the anchors being lowered, uh, newspaper clippings of the time, the record union Sacramento, California, November 23rd, 1896, uh, strange visitors seen there on Saturday evening. Speaker 4 00:20:15 And we wanna make the point that when in very rare cases, when these craft landed and the population of the towns actually got up to where these craft landed and spoke to the quote unquote pilot, the eyewitnesses said that these quote unquote pilots, in some cases, they were wearing smoke colored glasses. So when you put this all together, you've got the big black dogs on the deck of the ship. You've got the well dressed, eccentric, uh, inventors. You've got the fact that they were laughing and they were lowering anchors. And that the fact that they were wearing smoke colored glasses, this really doesn't sound like an extraterrestrial alien visitor from thousands of light years away. It has a much more mechanical terrestrial explanation that be, could be tied into the Sonora arrow club. Speaker 2 00:21:11 Very interesting. There is a, uh, a train of thought, of course, in, in the UFO history, uh, that maybe you'd like to extrapolate upon it, that, uh, people interpret what they see according to their own culture and knowledge. And, uh, with the explanation that, that you you've been giving, it's very possible that they interpret it that way, because that's the culture that the craft come from. Well, what were the inventors? Speaker 3 00:21:36 What were the best selling books at that time? You know, Jules Verne, right? Speaker 2 00:21:39 Jules, Speaker 3 00:21:39 Verne, you know, you tripped to the moon, all that stuff. And then not, not too, too long after that pro uh, I can't remember the exact year, but whenever a trip to the moon was, was made one of, one of the first sort of, you know, big, big films with editing, um, by George Meier in, in France, you know, there, I think there was this, this idea of, of this hyper mechanical culture, I guess, modern people refer to it as steampunk quote unquote. And, um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, I, I think that would definitely color perceptions. You know, what, what are your thoughts on that? Speaker 4 00:22:11 Yeah, I mean, they certainly, they mimic the form fit and function of craft at the time. Like you mentioned some of the jewels ver so I think there's the best way to describe it is what they were familiar with. And if, if we just go by the eyewitness reports and we, we go by the newspaper clippings, and I should mention, there are hundreds of newspaper clippings about these cases starting from 1896 to 1897, all the way to Ohio the east coast. And I'm thinking, Hmm, what would be the origin for this? And why would they do this? Well, it wasn't that long prior to all these sightings, if we go to the 1849 California gold rush, it sounds like someone was setting up a way to covertly transfer gold from the gold fields of Northern California, all the way to the east coast, but do it covertly. That could be why these mystery Airship waves were built in CLN. Speaker 3 00:23:12 Hmm. Speaker 2 00:23:12 Hmm. Uh, was there government involvement, do you think, is it what we today refer was big government really started with Abraham Lincoln in the civil war. So do you think government was involvement? Was it just private enterprise? Speaker 4 00:23:25 Well, according to Walter Bosley, these were financed by a eccentric group of rich investors called NSA back east from New York. And that's where they got the money to finance these programs. And he makes a very good case for it. Speaker 2 00:23:42 Wow. What about 1909? Uh, in that period, there, there were a number of sidings of the whole Jersey devil thing around Philadelphia. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:23:51 Forget the Hudson river valley too. Hudson Speaker 2 00:23:53 River valley too. Um, was there a connection there or, or, uh, or what, Speaker 4 00:24:00 Yeah, I, I think there probably is a connection and Linda Zimerman who deserves a lot more credit than she gets. Yeah. Dear Speaker 2 00:24:06 Friend. Speaker 4 00:24:06 She has drilled down on the, on those sightings as well. The, the early 1900 sightings. Yeah. She's done a very good job Speaker 2 00:24:13 On that. Tremendous. Yep, exactly. Yeah. I Speaker 3 00:24:15 Heard one of her, one of her lectures on that, on, Speaker 2 00:24:17 Oh yeah. We've lectured to Denver and we were supposed to lecture, I think, uh, together as well, but not together, but in on the same, same agenda. And I guess, uh, something happened that one of us couldn't anyway. Uh, so let's, um, take our mids show break if we may Ben mm-hmm <affirmative> and you're listening to behind the paranormal with Paul Ben Eina on w 12:40 AM, 99, 5 55 and new England's windy Blackstone river valley with our terrific guest today, Michael Strat. And we'll be right back. So stay with us Speaker 5 00:24:53 The night is alive. Join us and take a walk on the weird side. When you tune in to the kingdom of ni hosted by Heather Wade, the finest in late night talk, listen, live free weeknight [email protected] talk stream, live.com and the paranormal radio app. Wanna take a ride Speaker 2 00:25:24 And welcome back to behind the paranormal on w oh N radio. And we're back with Michael Strat and we're discussing a lot of UFO cases that you probably never heard of. Uh, Ben, did you want to continue or could we get into the Michelin Speaker 3 00:25:38 Man? Oh, I think it, I think, um, it, it would be unfair for me to keep stepping on, on Peter's time. So <laugh> Speaker 2 00:25:45 Oh, right. Yeah. You're right. I know. Let's go to, uh, Speaker 3 00:25:48 It's so interested in all this stuff. I just completely lost track great Speaker 2 00:25:51 Stuff. Uh, Peter Shelly from Bogota, Columbia, a, uh, one of our guest cos from time to time and they always sends in great questions. Speaker 3 00:26:00 Sure. Thanks. Speaker 2 00:26:00 It's very complimentary of Michael's work. Speaker 3 00:26:02 Yes. And, uh, so Peter starts off with, uh, what interesting feedback and speculations have you received regarding specific case reactions or sorry, case recreations you have done? Speaker 4 00:26:15 Okay. Well, first of all, um, I want to give credit to my artist, Tom Bogan, who has done the bulk of my full color illustrations. He's no longer with us, which I can't believe, but he has created, uh, numerous illustrations based on all of the eyewitness testimony and reference and paperwork that I provided to him. So when we talk about these cases, I'm not just pulling this outta nowhere. We actually have paperwork, documentation, newspaper clippings to back these up. So credit goes to Tom Bogan. Now there are a number of cases that I'm able to illustrate on my own, but if I can't do it, then I will, uh, commission the artwork by the best of the best people that I work with. And that's why these, these come out. So the, the goal here is to put you in the scene and make these cases come alive. Like you're actually there, that's the goal. And so I want to give credit to Tombo that's how, and the feedback I've got is that it, it, it makes you feel like you're there. And, and that's what I hope. I hope that people appreciate the work and, you know, the amount of, uh, blood, sweat, and tears that has gone into this to just to make these cases come alive. That that's the goal. Mm Speaker 2 00:27:28 It's wonderful. And, uh, with Michael's permission, we're gonna put a few, uh, of these illustrations on the, behind the Bearn normal, uh, dot com our website, uh, on the talking points page for the show. So, uh, give us 24 hours or so for that. And, um, you'll be able to at least, uh, see some now Michael, tell us where people can get the book and, uh, where they can find out more about you. Speaker 4 00:27:52 No problem. The book is called dark files of pictorial history of loss, forgotten and obscure UFO encounters. It includes everything we've talked about today. I've got 66 of my best cases. They're all referenced. And a, after the description of each case, I give you the references of where you can verify this on your own. It, it includes the full color illustrations, the drawings, uh, that really make these cases come alive. And, and I challenge people. I want you to question me, and if all things being equal, if we're using the scientific principle here and I provide you for, with the references, you should be able to go out on your own and verify and get the exact same results that I get. That is the scientific principle it's it's available on Amazon right now. Speaker 2 00:28:39 Excellent. Okay. Sometimes that question deceives our guests in the thinking, the interviewers over which it is not. So let's continue now. Uh, the Michelin man thing, I've always been fascinated by that. I've seen illustrations of that. Uh, the Michelman for anybody doesn't know the Michelin entire company as this guy made out of tires and the advertising, uh, character sort of thing. But, uh, things like this have actually been seen 19 68, 19 77. Can you, uh, talk about that, Michael? Speaker 4 00:29:08 Sure, sure. I'd be glad to. Yeah. Uh, no discussion about UFOs would ever be complete if we don't talk about the Michelin man, now I'm aware that it sounds crazy. It sounds ridiculous. It sounds like it would damage your credibility, but I, I have to go where the data is taking us. I cannot discount what, what it's saying here. Now we'll set this up here. This thing's been seen all around the world, multiple locations, multiple times, multiple witnesses. This is July 31st, 1968 reunion island in the Indian ocean and the primary eyewitness. And this is referenced primary eyewitness was picking grass for his rabbits. He kind of went around this bend in the trees there, and he ends up seeing this very unusual craft. It was about 16 feet across. It had this elliptical egg shape appearance to it. The forward section had a transparent wraparound section and on the left and right hand side of this egg shape craft, it had a translucent blue section that you couldn't really see through. Speaker 4 00:30:13 Now, the whole thing was propped up about three and a half feet from the ground on what looked like a glass opaque pedestal. And then there was a mirror image, one of those on the upper side of the craft, and he's watching this and he's looking inside this and what does he see? He sees the Michelin men. There were two of them <laugh> and the one on the left, the one on the left kind of turned around. He had his, uh, back facing the primary eyewitness. The one on the right saw he was being looked at by the primary eyewitness. And there was this big sparking flash, the beings and craft disappeared. And then about two weeks later, when the primary eyewitness was interviewed, they went back to the site and they, they had, uh, discovered residual effects of radiation in the soil. So let's break it down. Speaker 4 00:31:05 It it's a C E one, cuz it's a visual sighting. It's a C E two because it had physical effects and it's a C E three because he saw being so it in it encapsulates all of the primary features here. And, uh, the reference for this there's multiple references, but the primary wet, uh, primary source is flying saucer review January, February, 1969. But I don't wanna stop here because I want to hit you with another Michelin man case. This is March 14th, 1976, Lira, Spain, the parents of a younger boy who just got out of this graduating Naval academy ceremony. They're driving home it's at night. And uh, they're kind of going around a bend in the road. They go up this hill, go down this hill. And it was the wife who was in the passenger side. She looked off to the left and she could see how she described. Speaker 4 00:32:02 This is this cork screw light that was transforming itself from a light to what looked like Sunday night at the Oscars. It looked like Oscar award, but it looked like a Michelin man. It had this rubber black diving suit on it had clench fists that were kind of pointed down toward the ground. Its feet were together and it was hovering about 16 inches off the ground. This thing was not walking. It was floating above the ground. Now, as they passed by this strange Michelin man being the electrical system on their car burnt out and the lights went off. So right now it's a, it's a C E one. It's a C E two. It's a C E three. We've got the original map. And the source for this is the gray Barker UFO, uh, collection in Clarksburg West Virginia had to dig down deep for that. Speaker 4 00:32:58 Now I want to hit you. What, with what the primary eyewitness said now, his name is Don Vincente Corll and he just made a very interesting, simple quote here, quote, it was not of this world, but of another. And when they drove by this, uh, two cars that were behind them actually pulled off to the side of the road. They asked if the primary eyewitness and his wife needed assistance because their lights were gone. So the other cars, one car got in front of the witness' car, the other car got in back and then they, they sorta helped them get back to the next city. So, you know, this was a very interesting case, independent confirmation of the, uh, reunion island, Michelin man case. Speaker 2 00:33:42 Hmm. Now what would you say about the theory? What would would you say? This is one of the 10% of, of cases that might be, uh, extraterrestrial alter terrestrial or non-terrestrial or whatever. Speaker 4 00:33:56 Well, according to jail and Heineke, if UFOs were nothing more than extraterrestrial space vehicles, how boring that would be. So even he knew that this is a multi-prong phenomenon here. You've got extraterrestrials, you've got aliens because there's a difference between those two, right? You've got USOs, you've got UFOs, you've got interdimensional craft. Uh, you've got possible time travel that we, so you've got all the, this is a multi-headed Hydra. It, it, it cannot be put in just one box. There's so many multiple things and they're multi-layered, and they're, they're hovering above each other and some of these converge and you've got entanglement. And so that's why this thing has been dragging on for 80 years. And, uh, it, it is just been such a, a difficult, we we've got to do something. We we've got to do something drastic to move this field forward. We need this physical evidence or we're just gonna be spinning our wheels. Speaker 2 00:34:52 So, so well stated now having almost become a priest, uh, I'm interested in the father Gill episode of 1959 in Papa NA gua. Speaker 4 00:35:02 Sure, sure. We can talk about that. That that's a, that ranks right up there as probably top, top three. I would say that's top three. That's how significant this case is. Now I would mention too is, uh, about a year ago I spoke to, uh, Jaylen heke son, Paul Henick. He was in, in 1974, they were in Evanston and the father visited them for dinner. Believe it or not. So you've got Jalen heke on this side of the dinner table. You've got father Gil, and then you've got Paul Henick and Gill just laid out this entire story to both Paul Henick and Ja and Henick. And when I heard the description from Paul of what the father had mentioned, I said, boom, wow, yes, we got a real case because he wasn't seeking fame or fortune credible witness. There were 25 other eyewitnesses that saw it with father Gill. Speaker 4 00:35:58 And we'll just kind of break it down here. This is June 26th, 1959. Popel new Guinea, uh, little bit later in the afternoon, about 6:00 PM and what father Gill and at least 25 other eyewitnesses saw, they saw a two tiered wedding cake. Bottom tier was 35 feet in diameter. Upper tier was 20 feet in diameter. It had what looked like landing gear legs coming out at about a 15 degree angle from the bottom surface of the lower part of the, of the wedding tier. It also had four men. Okay. They were described as looking like humans, not aliens. They, they looked like men. There were four of them. Two of them were nearly front edge of the craft. The other two were further back toward the center of the craft, which were more obscured. And there was about a 45 degree bluish white beam coming off the center part of the crap itself. Speaker 4 00:36:52 Now, while all this is going on, father Gill raised his hand above his head and waved at the two beings that he saw near the leading edge of the crack. And they waved back believe here, not they actually waved back. And this, this, this case has two names. It's called the father guilt case. It's also called the they wave back case as well. So it actually has two, uh, separate names now, independent researchers that got back to the site where all this happened, investigators that got there, they interviewed the other witnesses as well and had them draw sketches. And these sketches coincided. They were virtually identical. And I should also mention too that, uh, father Gill brought a lantern up near the craft while it was hovering above. And he moved the Lanard and the Lanard mimicked the movement or the, the craft mimicked the movement of father Gill's lantern. So there was some type of communication going on here. And again, this is back in June 26th, 1959. Speaker 2 00:37:57 Pretty amazing. Uh, one does hear of this mimicking of lights that people shine at this thing, uh, even during the, the moth band cases of the 1960s, where there were many UFO sightings, what's your interpretation of that phenomenon of, Speaker 4 00:38:13 I really not completely familiar with the moth man sightings, but I know Linda gets into, uh, all of the Hudson valley sightings. She, I, I have to give credit to Linda Zimer. She is a, a priority one class act. Absolutely. She's such a great Speaker 2 00:38:29 Race. Yep. Very dear friend of ours been on the show many times. So, uh, well, we'll ask, uh, that, uh, to her sometime. Uh, okay. Also the, uh, I'm, I'm interested too in the water pumper, UFO, Oregon, 2012, very recent. Then what's the water pumper image all about. Speaker 4 00:38:48 Okay, sure. Yeah, we can, we can talk about that as well. Now, uh, I wanna mention, just kind of give you some sources of where I got a lot of this information. One of the sources comes from David Marler in New Mexico, and he probably has the largest private collection of UFO files. Now he has acquired the Q folks collection that used to be 24 57 west Peterson avenue in Chicago. And kind of, as you mentioned in the beginning there, it took me about three years to go through all 50,000 cases. And, and yes, I, I did go through all of those. It was a boots on the ground crusade research effort. It required, uh, going there on every Sunday afternoon. Theyd, they'd give me access to the entire collection. And I'd literally just get there on kind of a, a Sunday morning, afternoon, and I'd just start pulling these file cabinets out. Speaker 4 00:39:41 And the Manila folders within these cabinets were packed so close together, you couldn't put a razor blade in between that's how PAC these were, and that's why it took so long. So it was a function of pulling each case out individually, very briefly reviewing the case. If it had a three page report, a drawing sketcher illustration, and then a flight path report, I copied it. And from there I commissioned the full color artwork and that's how, kind of how we got here today. Now. So David Marler has the Q folks collection within his files in New Mexico. So this was a case that didn't make into his book, but it came from him. So this is little Pauling river, Oregon, 2012, primary eyewitness stated that he saw what looked like about 180 foot wide triangular shape craft sorta had, uh, rounded corners. Now there was a six foot diamond or tube transparent tube that retracted from the bottom of the craft that made contact with a little putting river and started sucking up water through this tube. Speaker 4 00:40:47 Now, right next to the tube, it started spraying water down. And then he said there were three relief valves that popped out from the bottom of the crop and they were spraying water out as well. Now, while all this is going on, there were at least three orbs that were circling this entire craft. And there was a pale blue beam of light that shot off at a 45 degree angle, very similar to the father guilt case. Now, while all this is going on, he said that he could hear this washing machine sound. That's what he said. He said it was a washing machine sound and it would like complete the cycle and do it again. He saw it on three occasion and the sheriff saw it as well. So at the very least it's a C E two case because it did have physical effects on the river itself. And again, this is back in 2012, according to the David Marler collection. Speaker 2 00:41:41 Wow. Pretty amazing. The, uh, the notion of orbs, which you bring up is, uh, raises another, uh, question, uh, the great, uh, and late Ted Phillips, uh, who gathered tremendous amounts of information on, uh, UFO landings and physical evidence for that said to us, that he had noticed that over the past several decades, UFOs had become, uh, when, when the less nuts and bolts appearance in appearance to more almost ethereal or, uh, balls of light orbs, this sort of thing. Have you noticed that too? Um, as a pattern in cases from the early days up, up until today, the nature of the UFOs has changed to something less physical. If you wanna say that, Speaker 4 00:42:30 Uh, I'm glad you mentioned that too. Now we should keep in mind that, that these UFOs are trickster because they can come and go as they please, they can materialize and dematerialize as they please, they can go in and out of ocean streams, rivers, ponds, and they've been seen flying right into the side of mountains and having no impact whatsoever. So whatever these UFOs are, they're tricksters Speaker 2 00:42:55 Amazing. Did we get to, uh, P a second question? Speaker 3 00:42:58 Uh, it was vaguely touched upon, but I don't know if we ever actually got a full answer. So I guess we can, we can hop into that. Sure. Um, so the second question we have from Peter is in addition to creating, uh, spectacular, uh, new artwork for these cases, do you ever attempt, uh, to do more research on them, including attempting to contact surviving witnesses? Speaker 4 00:43:19 Absolutely. Absolutely. Now a lot of these cases are very old. We're talking 60, 70 years old. Uh, a lot of these have never been seen by, by anyone they've been, they've been buried in the Q post archive. That's why I definitely wanted to pull them out. Uh, I'll give you one case. In example, this is USS FDR, 1958, Guantanamo bay, Cuba. The primary eyewitness was a man named Chester GSKi. I spoke to him on the phone. I tracked him down. He's no longer with us. Now. This is somewhat of a, more of a known case, but still a little bit more obscure, uh, set this up here again, 1958, well kind bay Cuba. And one reason why the USS FDR aircraft carrier had a history of UFO sightings or USO sightings is because it's possible. The reason why is the USS FDR was the first aircraft carrier to carry nuclear weapons on board. Speaker 4 00:44:17 And again, primary eyewitness was Chester Greski. It's about 9:00 PM at night. And according to his report, that was written in the flat top newsletter and two other newspaper clippings. Uh, there was commotion below decks. There was screaming, there were yelling, there was chaos people who were screaming, they were trying to get to the flight deck, and it was a chaotic situation. I've got his original sketch, his original muon report. When they got to the flight deck, there were 25 eyewitnesses, just standing on the flight deck, looking up, and they saw this yellowish glow approaching the aircraft cure. And then when it parked itself about 150 feet above the flight deck, this was no vague nebulous, yellow orb. This was about a 200 foot long cigar shaped craft. I've got his original sketch in my files here, and we can send you that, uh, later as well, but about, about 200 feet in length. Speaker 4 00:45:13 Now, they, they said according to the primary eyewitness, they could feel the heat radiating off this craft onto their faces. So it's a C E two, 200 feet in length on the side of it. They could see these rectangular cutout windows running along the length of the craft behind these windows. The primary eyewitness said that he could see what looked like about five, 10 humanoid looking be that were walking back and forth between these windows. And one of them actually leaned up on one of these windows, put his hand above his head, like he was waving down to the Naval person or below they could see this. And he, he kind of pressed his face against the window and was looking down to the, uh, Naval personnel below. Now this thing departed at a high rate of speed. And the way this case concluded is when they sailed into port elements of the three letter in intelligent agencies got on bar, the aircraft carrier. They confiscated the records, the tapes, the radar tapes, the logbooks, and the excuse they made was quote unquote, gambling below decks. And that is the USS FDR case back in November, 1958. Speaker 2 00:46:26 There you go. Speaking again of, of the, uh, more ethere elements, uh, the, uh, great British researcher, Jenny Randalls has coined the term time storms. Uh, and yeah, this has to do, uh, with, uh, the question is, have you encountered cases where there are, uh, cloudlike or dislike phenomena? We got a video when I sent it to you, uh, yesterday. I don't know if you had a chance to look at it, uh, or, um, uh, the buzzing humming sounds that you mentioned or all associated with this. What say you about that? Speaker 4 00:47:01 Uh, I, I do have two cases that include, uh, clouds as well, where this cloud was moving in a rapid formation. It parked itself right over primary witness who was on a horse and then emerging from the cloud was about a 35 foot diamond D shape craft that had a blue Corona discharge around the leading edge. And so it's a C E two, it's a C E three. But to answer your question, yes, there, there are these UFO cases associated with clouds connected to craft. Speaker 2 00:47:32 Very interesting. Where is your work taking you next? Speaker 4 00:47:37 Uh, I am drilling down very deeply on Leonard Stringfield, crash retrieval cases. That's where I'm going now. Now I've already written another book on crash, retrievals connected to Leonard Stringfield, but I'm going through all five of his status reports with a very fine tooth comb, pulling out all the details. And I'm gonna set a commission, a brand new set of illustrations for all those cases. Speaker 2 00:47:59 Excellent. Well, I want a chance to, uh, read this book, which as I say, I always try to read, uh, the guest books beforehand and we're gonna have you back, but this is just really amazing. Tell us again about where it can be. People can find out more, excuse me. Speaker 4 00:48:13 Sure. Uh, uh, the book again is called dark files, a pictorial history of loss, forgotten and obscure UFO encounters it's available on, on Amazon. It's all illustrated all referenced. You can read it in one day. This isn't some 600 page volume. That's all text everything. I do. Everything I do is illustrated drawings, sketches, illustrations, paintings. I, you know, that's how, that's how I learn. Anyway. I like to see a, an illustration of when, when someone's presenting a case, I wanna see what it looks like, just like everybody else. So that's one thing. The other thing is you can kind of continue to follow me on my YouTube channel called blue room media every week. I'm posting a new video about historical cases. Now I've got three warehouses of cases. Keep me going to the next ice age and I'm just gonna keep bringing these out. So it's a never ending crusade. Speaker 2 00:49:05 Excellent. Dan, did you have anything else? Speaker 3 00:49:07 Um, yeah, so I, I, I think it's, it's, uh, uh, I'm, I'm trying to figure out how to word this as I'm, as I'm, I'm trying to sort of create sort of a, a, a final question that we can kind of have a nebulous exit to, uh, let's let's let's the field of ufology is, is definitely evolving in a way in, in its, in sort of its its own fun little way, like most fields in the paranormal do. Um, now we're, we're finding ourselves kind of at a, at for lack of better words, a paradigm shift almost where we're, we are getting to a point where a lot of these, a lot of the ex old explanations just really are aren't working anymore and we're trying our best to kind of wrap our heads around it. And it seems as if there's a lot of, a lot of, sort of like push towards this whole idea of, um, well, you know, as we kind of mentioned earlier in the show disclosure now, how do you feel about where the, the state of ufology is going? Where do, where do you see it heading within the next, you know, five to 10 years? Speaker 4 00:50:15 Uh, good question. Well, if you look at, if we, if we count June 24th, 1947, as the origin point for ufology now that's been over 75 years ago. Now this is the 75th anniversary. Now we, we have made some progress, no doubt we have made some progress, but do we really have what we need or are we just spinning our wheels without the physical evidence? We're just not gonna move this ball forward. We need the physical evidence. We need the gun camera footage. We need the eight by 10 glossies. We need the debris, the craft and the bodies. We need the physical evidence, anything short of that, we're just spinning our wheels. And so that's what I think we should focus our, our attention on anything less than that. It's, we're, we're gonna be here another 50 years and, and we're all gonna be gone and we're not gonna know. And so that's why we've gotta make a management decision and we've got to recover the physical evidence. That's how we're gonna move forward. Speaker 2 00:51:16 Well said, okay, well, uh, stick with this there, as we do our announcements, uh, first of all, I wanted to say happy mother's day to all, uh, and uh, one and all, and uh, why to take it away from there, Ben Speaker 3 00:51:29 Sure thing. And, uh, speaking of all sorts of wonderful festivals, the exer UFO festival is back after a two year hiatus and that will center at the historic Exor New Hampshire town hall, uh, over the labor day weekend, that's September 3rd and fourth. Uh, more information will be forthcoming. This is a great event, uh, sponsored by the Exter Exter area Kiwanis club, uh, to benefit local children's charities. We plan to do our traditional live broadcast from the event on Sunday with a panel of the speakers, uh, the subject of our talk, there will be time storms, uh, with thanks to the, uh, great British researcher, Jenny Randalls, whom we mentioned earlier, coined the term. Uh, this is a very fun event. The hotel gets involved, restaurants serve things like Roswell burgers, final frontier, Franks, alien crunch, ice cream, and all sorts of other fun stuff. And there's more information to come. Speaker 2 00:52:19 It's a great event. Visit our show website behind the paranormal.com where you can find over 1100 hours of our regular shows and special broadcasts since 2008 from CBS radio achieve radio and here on w O N a M and FM, including our shows that have been restored in the [email protected] Uh, also hear many of these broadcasts on the major podcast platforms, including iTunes, apple podcasts, and YouTube. You can download our show app. It doesn't do much, but it doesn't cost anything either. And you'll get the notifications of our, uh, shows as they are posted, uh, audio and video. So, um, talk about the charities there, Ben, if you want. Yes. Speaker 3 00:53:03 So we have, uh, our, our charity page on our website, that's behind the paranormal.com, uh, with several links to good causes that we've adopted over the years, including hope for Hilldale cemetery in ha Massachusetts, uh, USA cares, Canadian veterans advocacy, helping Haitis orphans and the Crohn's and colitis foundation, uh, of America, the sisterhood of ground zero. And most importantly, the, uh, or, sorry, most recently, I should say the Western Connecticut, the Western Kentucky tornado relief fund. Speaker 2 00:53:34 Yeah, the fewer tornadoes the better. Yes. But, uh, we should point out that we know the people that run these charities. We vet them very, very carefully. And, uh, so we can certainly vouch for them, especially, uh, helper Haiti's, orphans, Hilldale, cemetery, et cetera, and, uh, Canadian veterans advocacy. We know all these folks, so it's good. Yes. So what's on the front burner for next week then? Speaker 3 00:53:55 Well, uh, we have, uh, next week, they getting ready to go into the oven in, come out a show. Uh, that's on May 15th, we'll bring you an open line show, which we haven't done in a very long time. And we welcome back the great Shane Seaway, who we haven't had on. And geez, I don't even know how long to help tackle questions from listeners on many, many paranormal subjects. And it's always a fun time with Shane and it's, it's gonna be nice to have 'em back. Speaker 2 00:54:19 It certainly will. And we encourage you to write to, uh, Paul at, behind the paranormal.com to send in any of your questions. You can also call the show at any point, uh, at, uh, 4 0 1 7 6 6 1 2 4 0 station, uh, 12:40 AM. Yes. And, uh, that that's, uh, you're invited to do that at any time. We, uh, we'll take questions on all paranormal subjects, including UFOs, uh, things that, um, uh, go bump at the night, uh, and things that don't even have names yet as we sometimes, uh, uh, will describe it. Speaker 3 00:54:52 Well, we also have a backlog of years and years and years of questions. Well, don't people Speaker 2 00:54:57 Don't people get discourage of a tele, but, uh, no, we, we do have, um, a lot of questions that come in and we're particularly excited to welcome back. Shane was a tremendous, uh, record of, um, solving very, very, uh, negative cases, uh, for families and for homes. And so, uh, Speaker 3 00:55:17 And he has a particular talent of making things very accessible. Speaker 2 00:55:20 He does, and he's, he's very reachable and, uh, people relate to him. He's a really a great teammate of ours. Oh yeah. Okay. So, all right. Uh, we have a quote, uh, we leave you today with a thought from American lawyer of all things, Jerry Spence quote, I would rather have a mind open by wonder than one closed by belief. I'm Paul Speaker 3 00:55:40 Eno and I'm Ben Eno. And thanks for joining us on our great cosmic journey. And we shall see you next time on behind the paranormal Speaker 1 00:55:52 Return to this radio frequency 167 hours from now for another edition of behind the paranormal with Paul and Ben Eno.

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