Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to behind the paranormal with Paul and Ben Eno.
Speaker 2 00:00:16 What is neology? Is there really underground? Alien base in New Mexico are extra terrestrials naughty or nice. Oh, well, okay. Welcome to the 914th edition of behind the paranormal with pollen Benino coming to you from w O N a and FM radio and one socket Rhode Island on the paranormal radio app from talk stream, live on YouTube and via tunein.com. I am not Ben, but those muted questions, uh, came from me. I'm Paul. Uh, today we bring a new guest with some new views. Uh, oh, please go. Okay please. Ben is here.
Speaker 3 00:00:56 I, I am here. I apologize. I was pressing a couple buttons.
Speaker 2 00:01:00 Yeah, I'm doing the producer
Speaker 3 00:01:00 Thing is sometimes in live radio. Uh, things happen and then we, and then, and then we move on and that is what happens. All right. So Adam go rightly has been chronicling fringe culture for two decades. Uh, his articles have appeared in nearly every Zen underground magazine, countercultural publication and conspiratorial website, web website, a imaginable. If I can't stumble over my words, uh, he has dissected everything from the Kennedy assassination to the Manson family, to UFOs and beyond. Uh, we live in a time when any semi literate can write a book and usually does, uh, in, in my opinion, my dad's opinion as well. Uh, Adam's book, uh, comes as a relief. Uh, they are all well written, uh, fun to read, and he connects the dots in, uh, ways the few modern author does, uh, good, good stuff, whether you agree with it or not. And we're happy to have him with us today on, on the show, his website is Adam go rightly.com the, uh, book saucers, spooks, and cooks UFO disinformation in the age of Aquarius
Speaker 2 00:02:03 <affirmative>. So Adam, go rightly welcome to behind the paranormal.
Speaker 4 00:02:07 Thanks for having me and gentlemen.
Speaker 3 00:02:09 Oh, Hey, it's great. Great to have you with us. You know, it's, it's always fun to kind of have, have new guests on from time to time and we try to do that as often as possible. So I guess we'll kind of just hop right into it. Um, tell us about mutes and how do you deal with them in your a book?
Speaker 4 00:02:26 Well, it, I'm looking at the, uh, overall story of the, uh, DOE bass or the legends of the DOE bass and a big part of that, uh, story are the so-called, uh, mus, which is kind of shorthand for cattle mutilations. Uh, and so you're asking me how I handle <laugh> handle them. I look at the, uh, associations with the, uh, do say based, uh, story, and there's a lot of different associations and, uh, threads and the capital mutilation, uh, phenomenon such as it is, is just one part of that, uh, story and how it, uh, relates to, uh, DOE. That's not really <laugh> answering your
Speaker 2 00:03:11 Question, but we'll get through all that. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, Delsy New Mexico. I mean, it's fallen into paranormal urban legend here.
Speaker 3 00:03:19 We've been talking about it a lot lately, too. I've noticed.
Speaker 2 00:03:21 Yeah. Keeps coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, alien bases and aliens working with the government people and all, I mean, what, what what's really going on here, one of the things, the themes in your book that books that I really enjoy are the manipulation, uh, of the mythology of UFO to help, to control populations or, or to work out some agenda that someone else has, you know, and, and the truth is, uh, like not out there somewhere. So, so what, what, is there really anything happening at Del state New Mexico or is there just a ploy of some kind?
Speaker 4 00:03:56 Well, there were things happening at one time, another, or whether there's any secret facilities there. Now doesn't seem to be the case from, uh, folks I talked to, but in the, uh, seventies, there was a lot of, uh, strangeness going on and you really need, we need to step back and look at where this legend or these stories came from. And that goes back to, to the, uh, Benowitz affair.
Speaker 2 00:04:22 Oh, I was gonna ask you about Benowitz. Yeah. Mm-hmm
Speaker 4 00:04:24 <affirmative> yeah. So if you don't mind, let's go back there for a few minutes and it kind of lay that out and how that, uh, is connected to, uh, the whole DOE base story. So Paul Benowitz for your listeners who no, no. He was a physicist, uh, government contractor had his own business by the name of, uh, thunder dynamic thunder dynamics. And, uh, they, uh, basically, uh, provided and invented different, uh, like sensing devices and stuff for aircraft, uh, avionics, that type of stuff. So he is kind of a mad genius guy and he, he was also, uh, interested in, uh, UFOs and cattle mutes. He was a member of aro that UFO organization during that period, the timeframe here as we're looking at the, uh, late 1970s. And so, uh, where he lived was right adjacent to, uh, Curtland air base in, uh, Albuquerque New Mexico, where a lot of stuff was going on during that period.
Speaker 4 00:05:33 You also have Sandy labs there, which were involved in a lot of, uh, these secret projects. Well, as, uh, something called the Monsanto weapons area. And so in what the Monsanto weapons area was, was this the they house, the largest, uh, cash of nuclear weapons components, uh, probably in the world during that, uh, period in the, uh, late seventies. And of course it was also an air force base. So any who benit started seeing UFOs over the, uh, facilities or what he, uh, perceived to be UFOs, they were like nothing he had ever seen, uh, specifically they were over the, uh, Monset Monsanto weapons area, which, uh, got him kind of concerned. He started filming these things and he also set up this array of listening equipment and he started picking up all these odd signals and stuff that he was trying to decode. And over time he, uh, grew to believe that, uh, you know, this was <laugh> the aliens that were behind this for a number of re reasons.
Speaker 4 00:06:46 He grew to, uh, believe this. He, like I said, he started filming, taking photos and capturing these signals and he brought it to the tension of the, uh, uh, security there at, uh, Curtland to let him know that, you know, he considered it a national security threat, uh, even met with the generals and whatnot there, but they didn't seem to be taking him seriously, started firing off a, uh, number of, uh, letters prominent at, uh, politicians and even put together something called a project, uh, beta report that outlined what he considered this alien menace and how to deal with it. And at, uh, currently during that, uh, period, uh, there was a lot of, uh, uh, like I said, secret projects going on with stealth technology aircraft, uh, what was going on during that period. And also it was later revealed a, uh, secret, uh, program, uh, called project Starfire that was, uh, basically had to do with, uh, laser communications secret communications where you <affirmative> talked to satellites and maybe, uh, screw with, uh, other satellites from, uh, other countries.
Speaker 4 00:08:06 So this, it appears was what, uh, Benowitz was picking up on that he determined or that he suspected, uh, were UFOs. And that entered into the situation of fellow named, uh, sure. Doty who was with, um, the a O S I based out of, uh, Curtland a OS I's air force office of special investigations. Basically, he was one of the, uh, investigators that were put on the, uh, Benowitz, uh, uh, to deal with Benowitz as part of the counterintelligence operation, because they were concerned. And of course there's different, uh, interpretations of this story. And, uh, but, uh, from the, uh, perspective of the government, they were, uh, concerned that he would leak this information, uh, about these secret crap, these signals, he was picking up to, uh, potentially foreign adversary. So they wanted to, uh, see what he was up to. And during this time they also fed him some, um, phony documents that, uh, kind of bolstered his theory, that there was aliens, uh, uh, interacting with that, uh, base or, uh, potentially threatening that base. And the alien angle was, uh, part of the, you know, part of the motive here to, uh, discredit. Uh Benowitz so that's kind of where the, how does Dolce come into this? We can, I'll jump into that ne next, unless you have any questions at this point.
Speaker 2 00:09:46 Well, I just wanted to point point out that, uh, you know, having, um, in my own military experience, uh, underground bases are not on your usual and people here undergo basis. They go, aha. You know, some kind, crazy conspiracy thing. That's not right either cuz history is full of conspiracies. Uh, so, but in any case, uh, I think that it's very plausible that there could have been a base there certainly or was, but what it was used for that. That's another question entirely, uh, yeah. In, in chapter six of your excellent book, uh, Adam, you point out that something else I learned in the military that accurate information can be released from inaccurate sources deliberately and by versa. And that, uh, keeps everybody guessing and, uh, you know, is, is one once they learned in the sixties, you really can't keep secret. So you have to use this information. Uh, then that was really a tool that was used. So, uh, one of the questions we want address on the show here is, uh, as, and as you've begun to do is the whole UFO mythology or fact or whatever there is, it tends to be mixed up with accurate and inaccurate information and, and, uh, who really controls that or does anyone
Speaker 4 00:11:01 Well in the case of, uh, Benowitz, uh, uh, I think that's exactly what happened and, uh, according to different sources, that's what Doty eventually got in trouble for was that, you know, he was, uh, uh, seating, uh Benowitz with some disinformation, but among the disinformation, there was some, uh, actual, real information classified information and the reason, uh, they were leaking it to Benowitz and other, you know, there was UFO researchers involved, uh, with this like bill Moore for instance, was to put that, uh, information out there, along with the disinformation and, uh, uh, basically, uh, you know, put it into theological community. And you gotta keep in mind during this period. Uh, there was, uh, with, at, you know, with the different, uh, UFO groups with MoveOn and whatnot, there was a lot of civilian contractors who are also interested in the UFO subject that also, uh, worked on secret projects, you know, so that was kind of the interest of spies foreign nationals that were starting to infiltrate some of these, uh, UFO groups and the idea there was they'd, uh, lead information, uh, little bits and pieces that were factual.
Speaker 4 00:12:37 And then the, some that was disinformation approach, uh, you know, seeded to different UFO researchers, some who were working as assets, you know, for the government, such as bill Moore, he admitted that, passed that information onto to, uh, people in the UFO committees and see how it was responded to basically to see if, uh, other people had picked up on certain, uh, aspects of this, uh, you know, uh, different Intel that was out there for instance, show 'em a picture of a opposed UFO that was actually stealth technology and see, uh, what their reaction was, if the <laugh> the they'd say, oh, I know what that type of craft is. It's not a UFO and it has this, uh, type of a we weapons system and whatnot. And also once again to seed, uh, uh, false stories to kind of muddy the waters. So everybody was confused about, uh, you know, what was that actually going on at some of these facilities? Like Curtland where, you know, a lot of this, uh, stealth, uh, development, stealth aircraft development was going on at that law. Uh, when did, uh, answer makes any sense to you? Oh,
Speaker 2 00:13:58 No, it does. It does. Thank you, Adam. Uh, we have, um, a question from Peter Shelley. Peter is one of our guest co-hosts now, and then, and he's from south America and he has two questions for our
Speaker 3 00:14:10 Guests. Indeed. He does. I always look forward to his questions. Always, always very,
Speaker 2 00:14:14 Very thoughtful
Speaker 3 00:14:15 Questions. Yeah, indeed. Uh, so Peter writes to us, uh, first, um, have you spoken with Greg Valdez, uh, son of the police officer, Gabe Valdez, uh, who personally investigated the mystery surrounding dosey? If so, what did you learn?
Speaker 4 00:14:29 Yes, I learned quite a bit. <laugh> um, whew. Let's put a pin in that and I'll, uh, talk about, uh, what I learned from Greg Valdez in just a, uh, second, um,
Speaker 3 00:14:45 Yeah, sure thing we can, we can kind of put a, we can, you know, kind of put that on hold, shove it in the parking lot and wait, wait to kind of deal with it.
Speaker 4 00:14:52 Um, um, well, I, I want a little background on how doey enters into the, uh, story with, uh, Benowitz mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, and, uh, as well, Gabe Valdez. Um, so in 19 lady, uh, there was a, a lady named MERTA Hansen who claimed that, uh, she witnessed the UFO and the Eagle nest, uh, New Mexico with her son and, uh, the UFO being like a light down tractor meam and sucked up a cow <laugh> into the ship. And, uh, Hanson claimed that she and her son also got, uh, tractor beamed up into the ship where they saw this, uh, alien of some sorts dissecting, uh, a, uh, this cow, you know, a form of weird form of, uh, cattle, mutilation, you, and, uh, afterwards, you know, uh, this hysterical young lady, uh, me Hansen, she was in her mid twenties at the time. She, uh, contacted the, uh, local, uh, authorities there and evilness, and they didn't know how to deal with this.
Speaker 4 00:16:09 So they contacted Gabe. Val is the father of, uh, Greg Valdez, uh, Valdez during this period. This was, uh, in the eighties and like through the mid, uh, seventies onward, he was kind of the go-to guy, uh, in New Mexico for cattle mutilations and weird, uh, things in the sky. He was a state trooper there and, uh, Valez, uh, Gabe Valez had become, um, friends with, uh, Paul Benowitz, you know, and, uh, he contacted Benowitz cuz he didn't know how to deal with this situation either. And told her about this young woman who had had this, uh, in Ken and benit got involved and he brought in Leo sprinkle another kind of famous name here in ufology. Who'd been the last few years doing, uh, hypnotic regressions, uh, associated with aro and uh, different, uh, uh, groups <affirmative>. And so they ended up doing a regression of, uh, Merna Hansen and uh, hypnotic regression, hypnotic regression at, uh, Benoit's uh, house in his, uh, he had a brand new 1979 Lincoln town car, which he, uh, was, uh, basically wrapped in couple layers of foil, cuz he was, uh, concerned about the aliens interfering, sending some type of beam that would mess up their, uh, regression session.
Speaker 4 00:17:44 Anyway, what, uh, Hanson went on to describe was her initial experience where she went aboard, uh, alien ships, all that dissection. There was some type of medical experiment that went on and uh, they continued to regress her over a series of few days and she started having these memories of being transported at one time or another two and alien, uh, base where she, once again underwent, uh, some type of medical procedure at the hands of the aliens. And at some point she broke free in the facility and started seeing some of the, uh, classic, uh, tropes now that are in, uh, UFO lore with the, uh, vats with alien hybrid babies and uh, whatnot and due to this information, uh Benowitz for one reason, another began to, uh, suspect that, uh, the actual, uh, base was at doey New Mexico and that kind of started the, uh, legend.
Speaker 4 00:18:50 Uh, here he fired off. I was talking about, he was, uh, contacting different, uh, politicians and a couple things he said in a letter planted the, uh, seeds for doey base. One claim was he, he had was that there'd been a secret treaty between the us government and the, uh, aliens, you know, to exchange technology. The aliens would change, uh, exchange technology in return for human experiments, uh, people to experiment upon. And another thing in one of the documentations early on this is, uh, 80, 81 or so he claimed that there had been some type of confrontation at this Doce base and the, uh, humans there, military types, either abandon the base or they were, uh, killed. He also stated that he was developing close to finishing, uh, a Reagan that would destroy the, some <laugh> pretty wild, uh, stuff. But, uh, I'll now share some information that Greg Valdez, uh, shared with me, Greg, uh, during, uh, these days he was, uh, uh, he wasn't even, uh, in the eighties, he wasn't quite a teenager, still a, uh, young, uh, preteen, but he would go off with, uh, Gabe on a lot of his cattle mute, uh, investigations and whatnot.
Speaker 4 00:20:19 So he had a good idea of, uh, what, uh, Gabe was, uh, involved in all of this. And, uh, one of the, uh, stories he related to me also, uh, initially came from Greg Bishop in his book project beta. And, uh, this was information that Greg got first we're talking, Greg Bishop here got from bill Moore who was involved in this whole crazy affair. And Moore claimed that, uh, he was, uh, with, uh, JL and heke of project blue book fame. Uh, during this period they were having some adult beverages, uh, somewhere. And Heineke said that he had passed along a computer <affirmative> to Paul Benowitz that allegedly had software. You could talk to the, uh, aliens with pretty crazy sounded stuff here, but, uh, as it turned out, uh, the software was actually embedded by the us air force. And I think as a way to monitor Benoit's activity, he, once again is part of this counterintelligence, uh, fair, but, and so, uh, allegedly he could talk to the aliens through this computer and there's also some very primitive, like computer dot matrix imagery of what the, uh, aliens, uh, looked like, kind of, uh, some of them were reptilians others, uh Benowitz way back, uh, during that period was already calling grays, you know, saying, see how this ought of this material potentially influenced ufology.
Speaker 4 00:22:02 But so initially Greg Bishop was the, uh, source of that story. And during this period, heke, uh, was indeed still working, uh, different projects for the air force. Now, Greg, uh, Valdez and Gabe Valdez visited Benowitz at, uh, one time. And Greg confirmed that he actually <laugh> witnessed, uh, Benowitz, uh, using this a computer to talk, uh, to the aliens or receive messages. You know, it wasn't like they were just vocally talking to each other, other people who reviewed the messages were like, uh, you know, it was just really aliens, but even Richard Dody, who is a, uh, spurious source at times claimed that he was with, uh, Benowitz and, uh, watching him use this, uh, computer too, communicate with the aliens. Um, and so what that most likely was, you know, was if indeed all this happened, there's, you know, different sources for it, uh, was a way to, uh, Mo monitor Benoit's activity with, you know, <laugh> a computer who knows what else that computer had in it to, uh, monitor and listen in on, uh, Benowitz uh, during this period, but also to further promote this, uh, narrative with Benowitz that there was indeed this going on with an alien base and that the alien base was, uh, located at do.
Speaker 4 00:23:38 Now, there's also evidence you talk about underground facilities. There's also evidence of an underground facility, uh, at, uh, Curtland air force base. So the intent of all this seemed was to basically divert, uh, Benoit's attention to what was going on to Curtland from Curtland to dose, where they could, uh, as part of this counterintelligence, uh, campaign, easier, easier, uh, stage, uh, different things to make it appear. There was some type of, uh, alien underground base there.
Speaker 2 00:24:14 Hmm. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:24:16 A lot, a lot to chew on, but
Speaker 2 00:24:17 Indeed, uh, now I think, uh, the second part of, uh, the second question that, uh, Peter sent gets into that, however, uh, we're are coming up on our break. Can we take a break a little early? Yeah, sure thing. Okay. We'll take our mid show break. You're listening to behind the paranormal with pollen Benina on w O O N uh, 12:40 AM. 99 5 FM in new England's beautiful Blackstone river valley with our great guest today, Adam go, rightly we shall be right back. So stick with us.
Speaker 5 00:24:50 The night is alive. Join us and take a walk on the weird side. When you tune in to the kingdom of nine, hosted by Heather Wade, the finest in late night talk, listen, live free weeknight [email protected]
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Speaker 6 00:25:13 Ride local and live at 99 5 FM.
Speaker 2 00:25:17 And welcome back. It's behind the paranormal with Paul Benino on w O NM and FM radio. And we have Adam go rightly with us today. We're talking about lot of weird stuff having to do with UFOs, conspiracies and, uh, manipulation of UFO, mythologies, things of this kind it's, uh, pretty interesting stuff. Ben, did you wanna, uh, pose the second question that Peter asks that? Cause actually I think we kind of get into that in the
Speaker 3 00:25:41 Last we did, so I guess, yeah, we'll slowly but surely getting around to your questions, Peter. Uh, you, so, so we'll, we'll hop right into it. Um, which Peter writes, you discovered that the story of the alleged Doy bass guard, Thomas Costello was a fiction. Did you learn if the alleged Doule bass alien abduction cases of such women as MENA Hansen and Krista Tilton were also fiction?
Speaker 4 00:26:09 Well, that's the $64,000, uh, question there and no, I don't, I don't know for, uh, sure with Merna Hansen, that's kind of an interesting, uh, story with her. She basically, uh, after all of this, uh, half and kind of, uh, disappeared, nobody knows what, uh, you know, there was stories about her moving to California. And I think actually Gabe Valdez was, uh, deeply looking into the, a lot of these, uh, different, uh, rumors and whatnot associated with, uh, doey to see if he could pin down, you know, the fact, uh, separate the fact from the fiction separate the week from ch and he did indeed, uh, Gabe Valdez did indeed, uh, confirm that, uh, the Thomas Costello, uh, story was, uh, fiction and later Phil Schneider picked up on, uh, you know, he promoted the, uh, same story that he had worked in an underground base and had been involved in a shoot him up, uh, with the aliens as for, uh, Merna Hansen.
Speaker 4 00:27:24 Once again, uh, you know, nobody really knew what, uh, became of her. And I began to question was Merna Hansen, really her name. And in my conversations, uh, with Greg Valdez, he suggested the distinct possibility that, uh, Merna Han and was act also part of this counterintelligence, uh, program, which starts to make a, uh, bit of sense if you really, uh, think about it, that she was, you know, like a, uh, spy that was put in the, uh, middle of this to further promote, uh, these stories of aliens and, uh, divert, uh, Benowitz attention, uh, towards, uh, whatever was going on out there at, uh, DOE. And, uh, I also, yeah. Write a bit about, uh, Krista Tilton in the, uh, book as well. And she, uh, as well, my might have been playing a, uh, SIM, uh, similar, uh, role. Okay. But, uh, that's, <laugh>, that's another, uh, topic getting into the whole Krista Tilton story. That could be a whole show.
Speaker 2 00:28:40 Okay. Well perhaps, perhaps it will be all right. Um, let's move on to, uh, another notion that, that you deal with, uh, too, in, in your books. And, um, now Ben and I, uh, often are invited to speak at UFO conferences, uh, not so much ghost and paranormal types, cuz we're bad for business. We question all their theories. So they don't really like us very much, but the UFO people, uh, and, and we, we are on these panels with some of the, the big names and uh, they go down the line and they speak, uh, learn about disclosure. The notion that the government, uh, should be, uh, cajoled or otherwise convinced to, uh, just tell what they know about UFOs and they get to us. And we say sure of hands who believes what the government says, you know, and the whole audience will gro and moan.
Speaker 2 00:29:31 And, uh, so that I think is, is a problem from our point of view that, uh, whatever is released, if anything, it won't necessarily be accurate, it'll have an agenda it'll have, um, you know, and, and you really can't trust it. Plus the fact that there is no, the government, it's a bunch of competing agencies. Uh, some of which may know something know they will turf and all this business and nobody's really in charge. So, um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, let's say you on the notion of disclosure and I'm thinking particularly of the, part of your book where you talk about the, uh, the story that Steven Spielberg, before he made close encounters met with Ronald Reagan and, um, the whole notion that Hollywood is preparing us for disclosure, what's a you on all that. <laugh>,
Speaker 4 00:30:21 It's just another story. It seems, but this, it was intertwined. Uh, a lot of these same, uh, narratives get rolled out over a period of time by the same, uh, people. And that was, that was one of them that, uh, you know, that basically had to do with this, uh, secret exchange program with, uh, the ETS. And, you know, that's a story that really dates, uh, back or started bubbling up, uh, through, you know, uh, people looking into, uh, Roswell and the release of, uh, the MJ 12 papers that talked about this, uh, secret, uh, treaty, uh, arrangement between humans and aliens and that there was an alien in, uh, captivity. And, uh, you know, where did these documents, uh, come from? We, it goes back to, uh, it appears that, you know, they were fed to, uh, bill Warren. He didn't know exactly, but they came from Albuquerque New Mexico.
Speaker 4 00:31:30 And, uh, you know, a lot of people suspect that, uh, Richard Doty had a hand in this, uh, you know, promoting these, uh, what turned out to be bogus, uh, documents, the MJ 12 document. And so, uh, there's kind of this cast of characters. I mean, I say Doty, but there's a number that have been involved in pushing this, uh, narrative, uh, in every decade or so they kind of roll it out again in a different type of, uh, with a little tweaks here and there, but we saw it, uh, once again, uh, rolled out in the, uh, mid two thousands with the, uh, Serpo story, which it was later revealed by some internet sleuths that, uh, Doty was, uh, also, uh, intimately involved with. I don't know if that even came close to answering your question, but, uh, there it is.
Speaker 2 00:32:25 Oh yeah, there's so much information here. Uh, but regarding, um, with I'm thinking back to our old, uh, mutual friend, Stanton Friedman, uh, always receiving sort of anonymous, uh, documents, including the MJ 12 documents and this sort of thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and, uh, you know, anonymous letters are fraught with peril, obviously. So how much of this information, uh, do you think has come from anonymous sources as opposed to, uh, accurate or INAC known accurate or accurate sources? Stan Friedman seemed to accept a lot about the, uh, majestic 12 documents mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, could you say more about those documents for those who might not know and how legitimate they may be, whether anonymous or not?
Speaker 4 00:33:13 Well, there was a whole series of documents that came out of the, uh, Benowitz affair, uh, that, uh, you know, were pretty, uh, dodgy and later, uh, you know, were exposed by different UFO researchers to be, uh, bogus as far as the MJ 12 documents, uh, how those were rolled out in 1980 for now. Wow. All kinds of noise going on in my neighborhood here <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:33:44 Oh, so alien Steve's trying to disrupt the show.
Speaker 4 00:33:47 Um, so in 19, uh, so bill Moore was, uh, central to all this, and he was a, uh, up and coming researcher way back in the late seventies, eighties. And he wrote, uh, the, the, uh, and this was based on research. He and, uh, Stanton Friedman were research partners, uh, and eventually published the Roswell incident, uh, about these alleged, uh, Roswell crash in that happened, you know, back in 19, uh, 47 <affirmative>. And so that was 19 79 80. That book came out and around that, uh, same time Moore was approached by, uh, a, uh, Intel, uh, official high level, apparently who went by the name of, uh, Falcon and, uh, approached Tim basically with the off, with the offer, if you, uh, help us keep an eye on people and ufology report back to us what they are up to, uh, we can, uh, in exchange, uh, feed you top secret, poop on, uh, UFOs classified inform, uh, perhaps, and that, uh, Doty will be your conduit for this information.
Speaker 4 00:35:08 So Doty was, you know, there from the beginning. So jump forward a few years, 84, these, uh, documents, uh, pop up, they just appear from anonymous source on, uh, the door step. Uh, Jamie Sharay. He was a, uh, research partner with bill Moore during this period. And all of these documents appeared to confirm, you know, they were basically briefing documents, supposedly with this group name, MJ 12, MJ 12 were these different government, uh, officials, uh, that, uh, were briefing Eisenhower on once again, the Roswell crash and, uh, you know, uh, information, non ETS and, uh, et and, uh, captivity and all of the, all of this material basically confirmed, uh, you know, what was published in bill Moore's book a few years, uh, before that. And, and so, uh, well, well, that's basically the, uh, you know, the MJ 12 documents, the FBI, uh, actually looked into it and they confirmed, they were bogus.
Speaker 4 00:36:27 I know some people say, well, the FBI was, uh, covering, uh, stuff up, but, you know, uh, a lot of researchers looked into that, uh, you know, during the period and, uh, years to, uh, come and, you know, they're, you know, they look fishy to me. They, uh, there there's a lot of, uh, questions with them as far as, uh, how they conform to, uh, actual, uh, government, uh, document. And of course, there's the Stanton Freemans of the world who stood by them till the end. But of course, uh, he had a hound in that hunt.
Speaker 2 00:37:07 Yeah. Oh, okay. Well <laugh> yeah. Uh, could you tell us, well, let's take a moment to talk about your, your book, your books, your website, where people can find out more.
Speaker 4 00:37:18 So, yeah, I've written a bunch of books over the years, uh, that you can find all of them. Most of [email protected]
course, uh, oh, they run the, uh, gamut, you know, I've written a couple of books on, uh, UFOs, one with my buddy, Greg Bishop called Aus for a DSKY the golden age of the UFO contactee. If you guys are familiar with that kind fun,
Speaker 2 00:37:44 Joe farer was right on this. Right, right. On this station with us
Speaker 4 00:37:49 Kind of a, yeah. Who's, who's who of the old school, you know, uh, contact these, and then there's this book sauce spook and, uh, cooks, but I've written on you, um, conspiracies quote, unquote, the book on the, uh, Manson family or colorful characters, like, uh, Kerry Thornley in my book, the prankster and the, uh, conspiracy. And so, yeah, it's kind of a wide range of stuff I'm interested in, uh, UFOs, paranormal, conspiracy theories, uh, consciousness, uh, counterculture, psychedelics, all that fun kind of, uh, stuff
Speaker 2 00:38:29 <laugh>. Yeah, no, it's good. And as I say, I love the way you write now, and I'm an editor professionally, and I don't give compliments easily, but in any it, uh, uh, you're welcome. Let's get back to, um, talking about in chapter 21, you deal with the, the Crestone Manifesta where Creston mm-hmm <affirmative> am I pronouncing that correctly?
Speaker 4 00:38:48 Christ stone
Speaker 2 00:38:49 Creston. Can you tell us about that John Le and all those fun guys mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:38:54 Well, yeah, that also plays into this, uh, the myths of the DOE uh, story. So this, the Crestone, uh, conference I first heard about, uh, as I was digging into all this stuff and interview with bill Moore from 1994, he was on with Don Ecker when Don Ecker Ecker had a radio show back then, and they got to talking about, uh, you know, the ETS, the grays, the mythos surrounding all of this, what was true in false and, uh, to step back a little bit, 1989, um, <affirmative> and I will get to the CRE conference in 1989, bill, uh, Moore, basically at the MoveOn, uh, conference in Las Vegas, spilled the beans about his involvement with, uh Benowitz and that whole fair. And he had admitted that he had, uh, you know, worked as an, uh, informant, I guess, is the best way you could say it, an unpaid informant.
Speaker 4 00:40:01 And you made that, uh, deal that, uh, basically kind of keep an eye on ufology in, uh, exchange for top secret UFO information, but he basically spill the beans on this at the SMU on conference it, and, uh, pointed to the likes of, uh, John Le he didn't name LIS specifically in his lecture, but he was obviously talking about John Le and other people who he felt had taken, uh, the benit story and now were running with it and embellishing upon it and taking to ridiculous levels. So he felt the community needed to know. And he was, he basically got ran out of the, uh, <laugh> conference hall that night, if there'd been, uh, tomatoes and vegetables for SI he, you know, they probably would've been hurling them at him. So anyway, there's that part to the story. So, uh, in this, uh, jump ahead in 94 on this radio program, he said that all of this, the doey story was really, it came together at this CREs conference in 1984, which wasn't a full blown UFO conference.
Speaker 4 00:41:15 It was just some of the key players in ufology during that period getting together and, uh, you know, just kind of meet and talk about the current, uh, state of, uh, ology and, uh, out of this, once again, according to, uh, Moore, um, came this whole Dolce mytho. So I didn't, I, I was researching, I couldn't find out much about this conference until, uh, oh the last few years when I got to know David Perkins, who ended up writing the intro to my book mm-hmm <affirmative> and he was there at that, uh, conference. It was just like a dozen Linda Moton, how was there? And John Le was now an up and comer and ufology, a few, uh, other people and Le was pressed, uh, got everybody together one day. And he said, you wanted to put together this manifesto to talk about the current of ufology.
Speaker 4 00:42:15 And, uh, they put their heads together and they could agree that, uh, you know, one with the cattle mutilations, they felt that, uh, this group included Perkins and, uh, uh, Tom Adams, cattle mutilation researchers were there as well, that, uh, UFOs were somehow associated with the cattle mutilation phenomenon that's as far as they go, but L wanted to take it, uh, further and claim that there was indeed an alien invasion going on and, you know, put out this type, a statement or manifesto, and everybody backed off at that point. And it's not, not John. That seems like a, uh, bit too much, but the lyric kind of ran with the, and, uh, he was heavily, uh, in getting into doey during this period and also his, uh, what he was, uh, not his leave, but maybe his belief, but what he was promoting was that indeed, you know, there was the secret treaty with the aliens in exchange for technology, but he went even further that this was part of a alien invasion, that they were breeding these alien hybrid babies as alien race, cuz they were dialing dying race.
Speaker 4 00:43:36 And that these aliens were also drinking the precious bodily fluids of, uh, human BA babies and all this, uh, wild stuff that came out in something called the L statement, which I think he was fishing for at this Crestone conference to get more people to sign in. But you know, this became a, uh, thing in like 89 or so when he released, uh, this statement, it kind of took ufology by storm, uh, during that period and you linked all of this to the, uh, Doce base, you may remember the there's been different, the statement or whatever that mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, was basically released during that period through, uh, different user, uh, groups. You know, this was kind of at the very early stages, uh, of, uh, you know, the internet and it, uh, went viral, became a big meme within ufology. And I think, you know, became a big influence on the media too.
Speaker 4 00:44:43 And, uh, shows like the X files that wove in a lot of these, uh, different elements to the story Le went on to, uh, meet, uh, Paul Benowitz around this period 88 or so spent a few days at Benoit's home after which Benowitz disconnected his phone and, uh, kind of disappeared from ufology, uh, different, uh, research. And I suspect this would be, be the case like, uh, Christian Lambright, uh, convinced something went on there with, uh, L and, uh, Benowitz that once again was the reason that Benowitz left ufology and, uh, the, uh, high probability that you latched onto a lot of, uh, benit actual, uh, materials and documentation during that period and went on to went on to promote this, the Dolce based mythos.
Speaker 2 00:45:45 Okay. I have about a hundred more questions, but Ben, uh, you you've been sitting here quietly. Uh, did you,
Speaker 3 00:45:50 Uh, I'm I'm taking it all in. Um, and uh, I always like to take a, a few minutes and, and kind of, um, sort of take everything that we've heard and, and try and formulate a well thought out question sometimes it's well thought out, um, and sometimes it's not, and maybe this one will, it might be right in the middle. Uh, so I, I I'll
Speaker 4 00:46:11 Let you know.
Speaker 3 00:46:12 I thank you. I, you know what I appreciate constructive criticism. Um, I think it's really interesting that I've, I've heard the word mythology and mythos used a lot in this, this whole conversation. And that fascinates me because I've been playing with this really fun definition of mythology, which is not so much oh, well, you know, it's, it's a, it's a fiction it's just that happened before and we, you know, attribute things to it that are like, well, we can't really figure out what it is. So let's just attribute it to, you know, some sort of force outside ourselves. Rather the definition I've been playing with is a story that we participate in that we're all kind of a part of, right? So we're all a part of a mythos in some way, shape or form. Right. You know, whether you want to throw in, I don't know, um, like let's say a Christian mythos, or you wanna throw in, you know, if you wanna make it more modern, a fandom, if you will, which is, you know, we participate going to movies, we, you know, get into costumes, we participate in this story of, you know, star wars, star Trek, whatever.
Speaker 3 00:47:14 I think it's really interesting that there's this sort of mythology of ufology. It did not mean for that to rhyme, but now that'll stick in your heads. Uh, is the, yeah, that's good. The mythology of ufology, which is, it's so hard to pin down because, um, you know, the story is always changing. So the story that we're participating in is constantly changing. And one of the really interesting things that I've I've found from this is the manipulation of that story over time. Now my, my question is this there's sort of two camps that I've been Divi been to divide it into over the last, you know, decade or so. You know, you have your nuts and bolts, you know, traditional, you know, these are craft that come from, you know, the Endra to galaxy, you know, X amount of light years away. And then you have the people that are more, well, it's a spiritual thing, you know, they're these, these higher beings that are, are technologically and really advanced and they, they want to help us. And you find some of these narratives, especially like, you know, the, um, the do say one's really interesting because it, it kind of, it doesn't really fall into either of those camps. And it's really hard to pin down now, in, in your opinion, with the state of, of sort of the mythology of ufology where think it's going to go from here,
Speaker 4 00:48:33 <laugh> the field of ufology. Oh my God. That's, that's a weighty question. I don't know.
Speaker 3 00:48:40 <laugh> 25 words or less <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:48:45 I, I, I can't predict I, well, you see the same, uh, stories, uh, get retreaded all the time. So I would suspect, uh, they'll continue to, uh, retread a lot of this stuff. For instance, the so-called metamaterials or memory metals or stuff retrieved from crash saucers. It's still a, uh, big topic, uh, in current day UFO disclosure. I mean, that was a big part of, uh, the TTS, a story that there was possibly some weird materials. They were looking at. They, uh, big alow, uh, modified a facility in, uh, Las Vegas to look at this stuff. But you, if you trace the store back in ufology, it really started with one of the first accounts, which was kind of a dubious story to begin with having to do with the Morry island affair, where there was, they called ITAG that rained down from these, uh, UFOs.
Speaker 4 00:49:47 Mm. You hear the story again, uh, connected, uh, Roswell with the so-called, uh, memory medals, uh, go jump forward a little bit. And, uh, art bell in the mid nineties or later nineties got a letter from somebody's guy whose dad supposedly worked on the Roswell crash with, and he had these arts parts that he sent to art bill art shared them around to a, uh, few people. I think Bigelow got ahold of some during that, uh, period. And it's a narrative Bigelow, uh, and people associated with him who have also been associated with the aviary and NS and, uh, John Alexander and all these kind of, uh, spooky types. They were looking at some material, you know, a couple, uh, decades ago that, uh, it could have been arts parts. It could have been a number of stuff. Linda Moton, how got ahold of that. She actually, according to her reports, uh, sold, uh, some of that to Tom DeLong, uh, to the tune of around $30,000. And so where's ufology go, uh, I'm sure we'll hear in the future, this latest, uh, thing about metamaterials will die out, but then, uh, 10 years from now, it'll come back. Uh, there'll be alien. Autopsies will come back. Uh, crash saucers are always there crash retrievals. Uh, Luelle Ondo mentioned crash retrievals the other day. And all of a sudden, uh, UFO, Twitter blew up with people who had never really, uh, <laugh>. We don't seem to know the history of these stories. Mm.
Speaker 3 00:51:42 Context is really important. And
Speaker 4 00:51:44 I, I, so I I'm kind, I'm coming across as is a pretty skeptical cynical type, but, you know,
Speaker 2 00:51:51 Well, you have to be, I think
Speaker 4 00:51:52 <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:51:53 You know, right. Yeah. You gotta, that's the problem with narratives, right? They take on a life of their own over time.
Speaker 2 00:51:58 <laugh> well, we're, we're just about out of time, but, but one brief OB observation, uh, with the, uh, alleged, uh, disclosures from the, uh, Pentagon, uh, over the past year or so. Uh we've and which has been covered by national news outlets, things of this kind we're hearing from a lot of people who want to tell their stories cuz now they feel it's okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because it's on the national news. So I think that might be one change we might be seeing.
Speaker 4 00:52:25 Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:52:26 Perhaps, so maybe that maybe that's good, but uh, give is your website one more time please, Adam,
Speaker 4 00:52:32 Uh, Adam go rightly.com. And also I started a blog, uh, semi recently, the last couple years, more devoted to UFOs kind of promo to promote these last couple books that's called chasing UFOs. So, uh, if you, uh, plug that into Google or whatever, you can see some of the stuff. And I put, there's like, uh, a lot of documentation and, uh, files and stuff that I weren't, wasn't able to include, like in the, uh, some of these books and extra materials that I post on this, uh, chasing, chasing you O uh, blog.
Speaker 2 00:53:12 Excellent, cool, great discussion, Adam. Uh, paranormal Renaissance, man. Folks. Adam, go, rightly
Speaker 4 00:53:18 Talk about, thank you much.
Speaker 2 00:53:20 Okay. Uh, so let's get to our announcements on Friday, October 8th, uh, I'll present a paranormal overview. It's gonna be the, uh, program, uh, behind the paranormal. Everything you know is wrong at Ave venue. That's kind of unusual for me, the Arizona douser [email protected]
com for more information, this isn't in-person event, but you have to register for of the thing on Thursday, uh, October 21st at 7:00 PM, I'll be back at the Haal public library in Haal Massachusetts to present on behind the paranormal. Everything you know is wrong. Boy, this is gonna be easy season for me just off, off the shelf programs here. Mm. Uh, this is scheduled to be an in-person event, but stay tuned.
Speaker 3 00:54:03 Alrighty. And we'll present once again at the Western Connecticut UFO conference during the last week of October this year, uh, on Sunday, the 24th, we'll do a live Simcast with the conference. This will be an open line show format with Kathleen Martin, uh, taking questions from the conference participants, uh, and our global audience on the Betty and Barney hill abduction case of which 2021 is the 60th anniversary on for on that at following Saturday, COVID variants permitting, uh, we'll uh, present live at the Danbury Connecticut public library, uh, to help wrap up the conference of the presenters that week will include mark Antonio, Tom Reed, uh, Michael Strat, uh, Linda Zimerman and Mike Pello from Connecticut muon,
Speaker 2 00:54:42 Uh, after years of technical difficulties, all regular recorded radio broadcast are behind the paranormal from CBS radio achieve radio here on w oh N a and FM have been restored in the [email protected]
also fully restored are the return to Ren sch series from 20 10, 20 11 on CBS radio, all related shows along with the achieved radio of monthly to our specials from 2009, we're still working on some other special shows podcast, but most, most of the stuff is [email protected]
and it's scattered around on the, uh, iTunes and other platforms as well, apple podcast, et cetera, YouTube
Speaker 3 00:55:20 And Spotify
Speaker 2 00:55:22 And Spotify. Yeah. Amaz where you find us. In addition, our shown now is its own a app. It's bare bones, but it's free. What do you want for nothing? Uh, right now it's just, uh, got most of our past shows on it. We plan to add features as we go. So check that out. All right. Uh, what do we have for next week, Ben?
Speaker 3 00:55:40 So next week, uh, that's October 3rd, we'll bring you an open line show to tackle the mountains of questions on all sorts of paranormal topics. You name it and we will probably end up discussing it.
Speaker 2 00:55:51 Yeah, we'll have a special guest co-host too. Uh, we leave you today with another thought from, for our times from the Irish born 18th century, British saist and parliamentarian, excuse me, sir. Edmund Burke. Nobody makes a greater mistake than the one who does nothing because again to only a little I'm Paul
Speaker 3 00:56:09 Eno, I'm Ben Eno, and we still have a couple of seconds left and, you know, fun. Funnily enough, I, I quote sir, Edmond Burke, a lot, uh, of amazing statesmen politician. If, if, if you've never had a chance to really do some, do some looking into him, highly recommended, especially since a lot of his, his stuff is, uh, very, very relevant to the
Speaker 2 00:56:27 Well, his main point is people get the government they deserve.
Speaker 3 00:56:31 Exactly. And on that delightful note, I'm Ben and thank you for joining us on our great cosmic journey. And we shall see you next time on behind the paranormal
Speaker 1 00:56:43 Return to this radio frequency 167 hours from now for another edition of behind the para.